M-14 Blasphemy?

H2O MAN said:
The "Sacred Cow" in the US military is the problematic M110... and from I have been told by many the 7.62 SCAR is also a problem child.

There is big money at stake and the competition can't stand the fact that the Smith Enterprise, Inc. Crazy Horse M14s
and TACOM M14EBR-RI rifles are doing the job without problems in the field and for far less money.

Also, there are far more M14EBR-RI rifles in action than there are M110 rifles in existence.

I'll stick with the modernized M14 :D
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I was hoping you would show up. :D Thanks!

For what it's worth, I don't think the M-14 manual of arms is that difficult at all. The author of the article labelled it "bizarre and archaic". Funny, because the iron sights were at one time thought to be one of the main strengths of the rifle and were also considered to be amongst the best ever put onto a battlerifle. The action is reliable and the rifle itself can be given modern optics through the simple addition of mounts/stocks.

I wondered later what the reaction will be over at the Springfield Armory offices when they read this latest article. They are a big advertiser and I'm sure that they, along with the aftermarket parts manufacturers for the M1A/14s are scratching their heads at what prompted this article. Bigger money at work maybe? :jerkit:

Like I said in my OP, I'm not a subscriber to SWAT (which, by the way, stands for Survival Weapons and Tactics, not Special), but only happened upon the magazine. I have read some of their other offbeat articles before though, including the infamous AR15 vs Mini-14 article from a few years back where the conclusion was that they were considered equivalent.
 
Pardon my spelling. I've become to dependent on Google to correct my poor grammar. I guess i was just miffed about your, Pride and Pregidous. Sorry Prejudice. LOL!

I Bought my M14/M305 from my good friend for $350..... That's right!

He had only put about 50 rounds through it.

I put a Deluxe Marstar mount on it, Bushnell 6X24X50 mil dot scope on it. Replaced the wood stock with a synthetic black plastic one Painted it Olive Drab and installed a S$J Cheek Riser. No modding other than that. just made it look ###y.

For under $700 that got me 3/4 of an inch groups and under @ 100 yards consistently.

Got to love the Chinese.

And i love my M14/M305.
 
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kurtk01 said:
Pardon my spelling. I've become to dependent on Google to correct my poor grammar. I guess i was just miffed about your, Pride and Pregidous. Sorry Prejudice. LOL!

I Bought my M14/M305 from my good friend for $350..... That's right!

He had only put about 50 rounds through it.

I put a Deluxe Marstar mount on it, Bushnell 6X24X50 mil dot scope on it. Replaced the wood stock with a synthetic black plastic one Painted it Olive Drab and installed a S$J Cheek Riser. No modding other than that. just made it look ###y.

For under $700 that got me 3/4 of an inch groups and under @ 100 yards consistently.

Got to love the Chinese.

And i love my M14/M305.
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That's awesome. I paid around $300 for mine with the plain jane Chu stock...second hand, but I don't know how many rounds down the pipe. I went to a gun show and found a USGI synthetic for $40.
 
300Spartans said:
I was hoping you would show up. :D Thanks!
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Thank you for posting information I had not seen yet :D

I was lucky enough to purchase one of my Poly Tech M14s for $400.00, but the rest of them averaged about $950.00 each.
Today, Norinco and Poly Tech M14s sell for $1K+ here in the states, but $800.00 is still possible if you find someone that
needs cash more than they need an M14.
 
Hungry said:
My M14 is for fun , tweaking , and teaching! Oh yeah, the SWAT magazine forgot to mention: fondling while watching Band of Brothers, while listening to the title song, "Requiem for a Soldier".

Barney
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My M14 is for "Full Metal Jacket" fondling, "this is my rifle, this is my gun".

I have an M1 Garand for "Band of Brothers" fondling.

:D
 
For anyone interested in some opinions and experience with the M14 in an LE/mil role here's a few threads I found quickly on lightfighter. You have to join to read them, and if you want to post make sure you follow the instructions on the joining e-mail;

http://lightfighter.net/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/4706084761/m/197103673?r=424101483#424101483

http://lightfighter.net/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/4706084761/m/6361003623/p/1

http://lightfighter.net/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/4706084761/m/2401037982/p/1

http://lightfighter.net/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/4706084761/m/5461064091?r=8151086091#8151086091

http://lightfighter.net/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/4706084761/m/168105608/p/1
 
Interesting, but know this: lightfighter is heavily populated with M14 haters ~ Stoner lovers.

Most, if not all of the military issues mentioned on that site occurred before the M14 modernization
program was fully funded and before the first TACOM M14EBR-RI was ever assembled.

They also mention/slander SEI's Crazy Horse rifle... all of the claims have been proven un-true.

.
 
Can you show links to any discussions, papers, reports, etc, showing that such claims are untrue?

I'm genuinely curious here, I'm not too big on the M14 simply from an ergonomic perspective, I much prefer the AR platform. But I don't know about the reliability of an accurized M14 or it's reliability.

I would like to point out that many of those lightfighter folks either own or have previously utilized the M14 both in personal and operational use, so they do at least have some basis for their opinions on the merits of the KAC versus M14 gun, and the capabilities of the M14 in general. Granted, many of the examples they've used were not the Crazy Horse models, and many of the issues are a lack of support for the M14 platform logistically, as well as training issues.
 
Seyek said:
Can you show links to any discussions, papers, reports, etc, showing that such claims are untrue?

I'm genuinely curious here, I'm not too big on the M14 simply from an ergonomic perspective, I much prefer the AR platform. But I don't know about the reliability of an accurized M14 or it's reliability.
...
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In R. Blake Steven's book 'M14 From John Garand to the M21', goes through the trials of the M14's acceptance. In general the USGI M14 was an OK battle rifle - not a target rifle. The manufacturers had problems delivering consistent parts and there were loose accuracy standards for acceptance.
 
I don't think the M14 was a necessarily bad battle rifle, I think the FAL was probably a better battle rifle, and the threads I posted earlier seem to indicate the M14 isn't an ideal choice for a marksman or sniper rifle. The SWAT article does point out that it failed to fulfill the roles it was procured for. The article states it was intended to replace the garand, the M1 carbine, the grease gun, and the BAR. Obviously it couldn't do so, but it has seen service since in a marksman/sniper role, but the M21 was replaced and now it only seems to be in service due to the fact they have so many available, but the SWAT article and the lightfighter threads all make good points as to why it's obsolete nowadays. Note that none of these are saying it's a bad sporting rifle, simply that it's outclassed as a military weapon by newer designs.
 
aaaaah....somebody find me an EMR stock and Ill buy another rinco to strap to it.

enhanced-marksmanship-rifle.jpg
 
Seyek said:
Can you show links to any discussions, papers, reports, etc, showing that such claims are untrue?
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Here is one...

http://m14hdw.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=discussion&action=display&thread=374

NOTE: There is no logical reason to beat this dead horse

Seyek said:
I would like to point out that many of those lightfighter folks either own or have previously utilized the M14 both in personal and operational use, so they do at least have some basis for their opinions on the merits of the KAC versus M14 gun, and the capabilities of the M14 in general. Granted, many of the examples they've used were not the Crazy Horse models, and many of the issues are a lack of support for the M14 platform logistically, as well as training issues.
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maple_leaf_eh said:
In R. Blake Steven's book 'M14 From John Garand to the M21', goes through the trials
of the M14's acceptance. In general the USGI M14 was an OK battle rifle - not a target rifle.
The manufacturers had problems delivering consistent parts and there were loose accuracy standards for acceptance.
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I realize their are many on LF tat have real world experience with old school M14s, but I am not aware that any of them have any real world
experience with any M14s that are a product of the modernization program... I'm sure the same can be said for R. Blake Steven's and his book.
 
klaus enuff said:
I get pissed when I have to expose myself and my posessions to people that I don't believe should even work security at the airport to begin with. Anglo Saxon White guy gets once over from former inhabitants of Dhirka Dhirka Stan. What a joke.


I cut and pasted the above words of yours from another thread. I feel safe saying you are an angry guy with a few issues. Keep making racially prejudiced purchases, you are certainly entitled to.
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Wow aren't you a clever little monkey. All computer literate and such. It's a big friggin jump from not liking the fact that some people don't observe copyright laws and flagrantly copy anything they can sell and make a buck on to hatred for people due to the color of their skin.

You should buy one of those inexpensive reupold Mark 4 scopes on Ebay so you can get what I'ma sayin.

Does it not seem unfair to you that although virtually all of the terror crimes commited in the world are done by radical muslims that me (canadian born guy of Scottish decent) and some little old lady are subject to the same scrutiny just because we don't want to hurt anyones feelings. Don't you see the irony that 95% of the people doing the checking are foreign born? Profiling is just common sense.

You might talk a white guy into blowing up a plane but he sure as #### won't be on it.

Oh and I'm not angry at all just opinionated. I do love the exchange.
 
Seafury the quote that was attributed to you stated being subject to scrutiny by "former inhabitants of Dhirka Dhirka Stan", not that you were simply subject to extra scrutiny, but by someone of eastern descent. That might be why people think you're being a little prejudiced due to race. Your prejudices, real or perceived, are not the topic of discussion however. The M14 and it's viability as a service weapon are what is being discussed. Nor is this a discussion about Norinco versus Springfield, I'm sure that's been discussed often enough on this forum.

H20, I'll have to take a look a that site later, watching TV with the girlfriend and I get the sense she's growing increasingly frustrated that I'm dividing attention. I would like to say that whether or not the Crazy Horse solves the M14 issues, I still don't think it makes sense to purchase them. I will say that I don't know the cost, but I imagine it's a few thousand. I think a 7.62 AR is a better solution, for reasons of commonality of manual of arms (easier to train troops on what is essentially enlarged M16/M4 than training them on a whole new weapon), the AR has the better ergonomics, it's not so much different that carrying one will make you a more tempting target to the enemy, it's better suited for optics, NVG, lasers, etc. Whether the particular system should be the M110, well, it did win the competition it was entered into, it's already in service, issues with the system have been addressed or are being addressed. If not the M110, there are plenty of other options now available, I was just checking out the Larue OBR, which looks to be working pretty well, and the commercial price I saw was only $3000 for the base rifle. There's the 417, sig's new 7.62 AR, LWRC, and others.
 
Pathfinder said:
aaaaah....somebody find me an EMR stock and Ill buy another rinco to strap to it.

enhanced-marksmanship-rifle.jpg
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Woohoo! A picture after my own heart! USMC M39A1!

Had one of these exact setup's about 2 years ago.

009-2.jpg

012-1.jpg


Just didn't have my S&B scope on it at the time.

Kinda regret getting rid of it.

Cheers, Carl
 
Seyek said:
Seafury the quote that was attributed to you stated being subject to scrutiny by "former inhabitants of Dhirka Dhirka Stan", not that you were simply subject to extra scrutiny, but by someone of eastern descent. That might be why people think you're being a little prejudiced due to race. Your prejudices, real or perceived, are not the topic of discussion however. The M14 and it's viability as a service weapon are what is being discussed. Nor is this a discussion about Norinco versus Springfield, I'm sure that's been discussed often enough on this forum.

Gotcha

I have not served in the military. Might be my single biggest regret. I have not seen combat been in a knife or gun fight (hope I'm not) so take my opinion for what you think it is worth. Probably nothing. I have owned an actual M14 and AR15,FAL, Hk91 rifles since before 1990. If I had to pick one for the sheer fun of it I'll take the M14. If I had to fight with one in open country I'll take the M14. In an urban setting I might be inclined to pick the AR.
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Personal preference

Without the experience of having to live day to day with and use any of these rifles to fight for my life I can only offer the opinion of a target shooter who kept them meticulously clean and transported them in a padded case.

No failures were ever observed for any of them so reliability is even.

I prefer the 7.62 cartridge over the 5.56. I think it is universally agreed that it is a better long range cartridge.

I like the sights, long sight radius and feel of the M14 over the rest. The FAL in my opinion has the worst sights and a short sight radius. It is however the easiest to strip, clean and maintain.

Oh and the FN beat the crap out of my brass.
 
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