Old Time Grizzly Guns

[MiG25]

Likely back in the day it was mostly trappers checking lines that encountered the odd Grizz and used the 25-20's 30-30's etc, not actively going out after Grizz with those cartridges.
However there was a much more aggressive predator extermination plan in the US turn of the century, and they probably used more adequate cartridges for the specific tasks.

Back in the day there were few elk or moose, guys around here hunted deer, sheep, and goats. 25-20, 32-20, and 44-40 were the cheapest centerfire cartridges. The rifles were more affordable and they packed well on horses, as well as being quieter and didn't disturb the whole country side, don't forget, a Winchester was also a status symbol. Grizzlies were shot on sight. The ones that caused trouble were the old boars that don't hibernate, trappers would spend all day on snowshoes and so would pack a light 22 which they would use to shot goats for meat. And of course a 22 is woeful for use on Griz.

I'm looking at a catalog from 1961, which post dates what I posted, you could buy a 338 WM for $165, but there is no ammunition listed.

Speaking of ammunition, I have a hunch that there weren't very many 45-70's in Canada, Dominion did not seem to load for it whereas they loaded for the 43 Mauser.

 

[MiG25]

A few things come to mind with regards to this thread,

-You can kill things with far smaller guns than standard. It isn't always a good idea, I do it too when weight is a worry, but because it's been done by no means translates into the majority of average shots are overgunned.

-Not all Grizzlies are created equal, many are only half again bigger than black bears, die just as easily, but they do have a far more tenacious disposition and if they make the alders problems can turn into disasters quickly.

-The .25-20 nonsense is ridiculous, sure it's possible, but I haven't seen more than one bullet exit on coastal Grizzlies and that's up to .375 Ruger.

-In the good ole days wounding wasn't as much a concern, nor were modern ethics. Grizzlies were vermin in those times, and much different standards were accepted in their treatment.

-I struggle to believe MiG25's grandfather killed fifty, and just like the bible believe there is some underpinning of truth to a rather exaggerated set of stories. Unless MiG25 is having fun with us, I suspect even some photos may be in the family archives as many hunters in BC have killed Grizzlies, especially historically, often with guns not terribly well suited to the task. It's not an overly remarkable achievement here, and many hunters here have grandparents who've killed Grizzlies with .30-30s or .25-35s, and so what?

-The old timers were also no smarter than you. They were human, and while legend making is a fun hobby often the old timers were ill equipped, operated in times of far higher game numbers, with a much more casual take on shot selection and the risks of wounding.

In the end, I want to know what the OP's end argument and position is. If it's just to stir the conversation stew he's succeeded handily.

I don't have an argument, just sharing what my understanding of how things were. I'm not advocating the 25-20 as a grizzly gun. My opinion isn't worth much, but I think anything you'd use on an Elk is fine for Grizzly.

I think wounding was an issue back in the day, the animal that is lost is one your kids don't get to eat. Game was scarce back in the good old days, lots of hungry people around. It took the big fires in the 1930's and most of the able bodied men being occupied during WWII for game to increase.

I've no reason at all to doubt the 50+, you guys would probably lose your minds if I said how many sheep he got. Back then it wasn't full curl, it was male over 1 year of age.

I do think the old timers were smarter than us, they didn't have TV, Internet, etc to rot their brains. Plus they had to think, fix things, make things, etc.

 

[Ardent]

Grizzlies have been extirpated from huge swaths of their former range, even in BC, there was a lot more of them to shoot at any time during the "glory days" than today. They were typically shot on sight with the gun by the door or on your horse as vermin, seen as a liability to homesteaders, trappers, farmers. The culture supported "keeping them in check" "putting fear in them", and chambering appropriateness were subjects I'm sure the ole boys would have rolled their eyes about. The grizzly used to range to Mexico, very recently as far as history goes, frontier mentalities fixed that.

Some uneducated folks still act that way, one farmer who made the news shooting a sow and cubs in the last year comes to mind, and many ranchers in the north hold the same disdain for them as existed in days closer to the frontier. An officially weighed over 1,000lb grizzly that was shot on a ranch in contemporary times is displayed in the Smithers airport. Heck Grizzlies were not that long ago just outside Vancouver. Times are different, motivations are different, and guns are different. Pretending we've forgotten something through the advances in equipment is pretty darn... romanticising of the past.

Anyone who's done a lot of hunting quickly understands the game, and views any extreme claims with a grain of salt. Fishing and hunting stories automatically require enough to start with, then add time. I fully accept your grandfather was a very busy BC hunter who did impressive things but having seen a lot of bears die including a good smattering of Grizzlies, I think if you could go back and see each incident some things would surprise you. One place we agree is elk rifles are perfect grizzly rifles.

 

[heronfish]

I don't have an argument, just sharing what my understanding of how things were. I'm not advocating the 25-20 as a grizzly gun. My opinion isn't worth much, but I think anything you'd use on an Elk is fine for Grizzly.

I think wounding was an issue back in the day, the animal that is lost is one your kids don't get to eat. Game was scarce back in the good old days, lots of hungry people around. It took the big fires in the 1930's and most of the able bodied men being occupied during WWII for game to increase.

I've no reason at all to doubt the 50+, you guys would probably lose your minds if I said how many sheep he got. Back then it wasn't full curl, it was male over 1 year of age.

I do think the old timers were smarter than us, they didn't have TV, Internet, etc to rot their brains. Plus they had to think, fix things, make things, etc.

I think we ca agree small chamberings have killed several grizzlies. But none of us would take one on a dedicated grizzly hunt.

At least according to iq tests, people are smarter now than ever before though.

 

[TheCoachZed]

Bell killed a thousand elephants with a 7x57, today I know few man that would carry a 7x57 in bear country let alone Elephant country....lol!

Very nice bear killing gun. I have a Model 81 in .300 Savage with Redfield peep sight and Krieger detachable mag. I bought it from my brother in law, and I think he bought it from an NS-based member here. Gun is also D&T for some sidemount.

I've only ever put half a box of ammo through it, and considered selling it due to the price of factory ammo. Then I realized it's almost the perfect takedown rifle for hunting off the motorcycle, a much better bear blaster than a single-shot Baikal. So it stays.

Looks like yours has been reblued?

 

[Lonesome Donkey]

I shot an old grizzly early one morning in my pajamas.

Why he was wearing my pajamas, I dunno.

 

[carverk]

I think we ca agree small chamberings have killed several grizzlies. But none of us would take one on a dedicated grizzly hunt.

At least according to iq tests, people are smarter now than ever before though.

Smarter that is way more Controversial debat I think it's the other way around
Not Grizly but I have had to hunt with light calaber rifle but I had no Choice at the time
If guy can afford a better rifle and better calber wy won't you get it and use that rifle
At the same time I would not condemn a guy who may be in a poor Financial situation using what he has available to him and working with wat he gots but he realy is just handicapping himself

 

[heronfish]

Smarter that is way more Controversial debat I think it's the other way around
Not Grizly but I have had to hunt with light calaber rifle but I had no Choice at the time
If guy can afford a better rifle and better calber wy won't you get it and use that rifle
At the same time I would not condemn a guy who may be in a poor Financial situation using what he has available to him and working with wat he gots but he realy is just handicapping himself

People are better read now with more information available to them than at any point ever, but that is beyond yhe point.

Is a 300 win mag a better deer rifle and a better deer calibre than a 3030?
Does this continue on up to a 50 bmg?

 

[carverk]

To me 30-30 is a better deer rifle but 300 wm is a better for Grizly and 30-06 or 308 is grate for everything
But I don't shoot 300 +yard on game most time I'm under a 100 yards but that's the limitation I put on my salf
I learned to hunt with Iron sights and under a 100 yards I know it's going to be clean kill
regardless what I'm hunting and what I'm hunting with wen I pull the trigger it's going to be a clean kill

Mid you I do have to practice shooting at extended ranges for a goat and sheep hunt next year probly going to use T/C prohunter 308 or Winchester low wall in 6.5x55 And I do have a HS precision in 7mm RM that would work but the barrel is so long and I haven't shot it yet
have a lot of work to do before that hunt wats more inporten is getting in realy good shape lots of walking on the job plus snowshoeing on days off I'm 20 lbs over weight and I smoke

 

[bearkilr]

There was an old timer around here that apparently finished off a bull moose by grabbing him by the antlers and breaking his neck. This was back in the day when winters were colder, summers hotter, insects more plentiful and everyone walked 10 miles to school...........uphill both ways.

 

[Kudu]

Very nice bear killing gun. I have a Model 81 in .300 Savage with Redfield peep sight and Krieger detachable mag. I bought it from my brother in law, and I think he bought it from an NS-based member here. Gun is also D&T for some sidemount.

I've only ever put half a box of ammo through it, and considered selling it due to the price of factory ammo. Then I realized it's almost the perfect takedown rifle for hunting off the motorcycle, a much better bear blaster than a single-shot Baikal. So it stays.

Looks like yours has been reblued?

Yes, that one has been re-finished - it was in a bit of a mess when I got it handed down to me - the 35 rem is a great all round bush cartridge - with 4 rounds loaded up in the mag and with the ability of really fast firing - the chances of get chomped by a bear is minimal...

The most common load is a 200gr soft point traveling between 2,000 and 2,100 feet per second. However, other bullet weights are available, though less common. For instance, Remington also sells 150gr load that produces velocities around 2,300 feet per second. theses rounds are good for most things in North America under 100 yards...

 

[carverk]

Hudu you did a beautiful job restoring that rifle it look like a lot of fun to hunt with

 

[sharp shooter]

Not everyone can afford 375 H&H ammo

http://globalnews.ca/news/1797756/s...es-in-northern-canada-prompt-call-for-action/

I hand load and look for deals. I can load a box up for cheaper than you can buy 30-30 shells. I am not rich by any means, I hope nobody else thought I was hot rodding, sold my 30-06 to and more for it.

 

[carverk]

I hand load and look for deals. I can load a box up for cheaper than you can buy 30-30 shells. I am not rich by any means, I hope nobody else thought I was hot rodding, sold my 30-06 to and more for it.

Wear I live it's not easy getting powder to reload and lots of people can't afford reloading equipment
I have all the equipment for reloading it's the powder that's hard to get
It's a 7 hr Ferry ride just to Prince Rupert and if J&E Tackle don't have it then I need then I have a nother 1.5 hr drive to Terrace to misty River tackle so in all I'm looking at about 2 day of traveling for ammo or powder plus you add up the cost of traveling it get silly pretty quick
Available Factory ammo is important in Remote communities
If the 375 ruger was as common as the 30-06 I probably would have the HS Percision rebarreled to 375 ruger

 

[Lonesome Donkey]

Wear I live it's not easy getting powder to reload and lots of people can't afford reloading equipment
I have all the equipment for reloading it's the powder that's hard to get
It's a 7 hr Ferry ride just to Prince Rupert and if A&J don't have it then I need then I have a nother 1.5 hr drive to Terrace to misty River tackle so in all I'm looking at about 2 day of traveling for ammo or powder plus you add up the cost of traveling it get silly pretty quick
Available Factory ammo is important in Remote communities

Your circumstances sound unique, and may be very true for you, but they don't apply to most shooters and hunters.

The argument by most shooters that they can not afford reloading equipment seems to be nullified when you discover how many firearms that they actually own.
The price of one of their rifles or pistols would handsomely equip them to reload for several cartridges.
So, unless someone is very poor, squats rent-free in an old shack by the river, walks everywhere because they can't afford a car, and shoots only an old rifle and shotgun, they can afford to reload.

Factory ammunition is damned expensive, and empty casings comprise 50% of the cost of such ammunition.
Consider that those casings can be reused 6 - 8 times in reloading and you can clearly see the economy.
The old argument is that you will simply shoot more so you won't actually save any money.
But, that's like arguing that if you buy your food at a store where it is 20% cheaper than at other stores, you will simply eat more, and that you won't actually save any money either.
Would you therefore shop at the more expensive stores?

 

[carverk]

Your circumstances sound unique, and may be very true for you, but they don't apply to most shooters and hunters.

The argument by most shooters that they can not afford reloading equipment seems to be nullified when you discover how many firearms that they actually own.
The price of one of their rifles or pistols would handsomely equip them to reload for several cartridges.
So, unless someone is very poor, squats rent-free in an old shack by the river, walks everywhere because they can't afford a car, and shoots only an old rifle and shotgun, they can afford to reload.

Factory ammunition is damned expensive, and empty casings comprise 50% of the cost of such ammunition.
Consider that those casings can be reused 6 - 8 times in reloading and you can clearly see the economy.
The old argument is that you will simply shoot more so you won't actually save any money.
But, that's like arguing that if you buy your food at a store where it is 20% cheaper than at other stores, you will simply eat more, and that you won't actually save any money either.
Would you therefore shop at the more expensive stores?

It's not as unique as you suggest go Hunt anywhere down Highway 37 in BC take Telegraph creek as a example It 680 km to Terrace one way ther is no place to get exotic ammo a long ithe way the same thing go to any small town or village in northern parts of any Provence
Many household in small norther communities don't have piles of rifles rifles as money is needed elsewhere
Many of the rifle are pass down 2or 3 generation and still being used as the only rifle in house
it's still common to still see a old Lee Enfield and a old 22 and that's it in a plywood box and that is it
When it comes to buying fancy ammo or paying bills the bills come first you got a remember there's no bus servis so driving is not a luxury like it is in the city

 

[Lonesome Donkey]

It's not as unique as you suggest go Hunt anywhere down Highway 37 in BC take Telegraph creek It 680 km to Terrace one way ther is no place to get exotic ammo it's the same thing go to any small town or village in northern parts of any Provence
Many household in small norther communities don't have piles of rifles rifles as money is needed elsewhere
Many of the rifle are pass down 2or 3 generation and still being used as there main rifle
When it comes to buying fancy ammo or paying bills the bills come first you got a remember there's no bus servis so driving is not a luxury like it is in the city

Your circumstances are no doubt shared by others in remote areas. I get that.
And, as I said, my remarks did not apply to those who truly were too poor to own more than an old rifle or shotgun.

But, many shooters and hunters not residing in remote areas still say that they can not afford to reload, when this is untrue.
My comments were primarily aimed towards them.

That being said, even someone who is poor who has only one or two rifles would benefit from a modest reloading set-up.
That person isn't going to fire many cartridges in a year, and so doesn't require much in the way of powder, primers, and bullets.
Certainly, that person is going to end up travelling to a major city at some point, if only once a year for medical or other reasons.
His modest needs would permit a small outlay for a year of supplies if he is prepared, and that would allow him to save money.

Also, reloading equipment can be very basic.
I started with a Lee Loader as a poor teenager. These are available for common hunting cartridges for about $50.00 by mail order.
This and a couple of very inexpensive Lee tools for de-burring and primer pocket cleaning is all that is needed for reloading.

Also, it would seem unlikely that someone poor would be shooting exotic cartridge rifles if these were passed down 2 or 3 generations.
(.30-30, .303, .308, .30-06, .243, .270, and .45-70 are more likely) These are all available as Lee Loaders.

Lee also offers very modestly-priced alloy presses, and dies that just about anyone can afford, which would cover just about any situation.

Really, just about anyone that can afford to buy rifle ammunition can afford a very modest reloading set-up. And once they have it, it will rapidly pay for itself, unless they only shoot a few rounds a year on a hunting trip.

 

[carverk]

Your circumstances are no doubt shared by others in remote areas. I get that.
And, as I said, my remarks did not apply to those who truly were too poor to own more than an old rifle or shotgun.

But, many shooters and hunters not residing in remote areas still say that they can not afford to reload, when this is untrue.
My comments were primarily aimed towards them.

That being said, even someone who is poor who has only one or two rifles would benefit from a modest reloading set-up.
That person isn't going to fire many cartridges in a year, and so doesn't require much in the way of powder, primers, and bullets.
Certainly, that person is going to end up travelling to a major city at some point, if only once a year for medical or other reasons.
His modest needs would permit a small outlay for a year of supplies if he is prepared, and that would allow him to save money.

Also, reloading equipment can be very basic.
I started with a Lee Loader as a poor teenager. These are available for common hunting cartridges for about $50.00 by mail order.
This and a couple of very inexpensive Lee tools for de-burring and primer pocket cleaning is all that is needed for reloading.

Also, it would seem unlikely that someone poor would be shooting exotic cartridge rifles if these were passed down 2 or 3 generations.
(.30-30, .303, .308, .30-06, .243, .270, and .45-70 are more likely) These are all available as Lee Loaders.

Lee also offers very modestly-priced alloy presses, and dies that just about anyone can afford, which would cover just about any situation.

Really, just about anyone that can afford to buy rifle ammunition can afford a very modest reloading set-up. And once they have it, it will rapidly pay for itself, unless they only shoot a few rounds a year on a hunting trip.

Tell that to the people in Port Simson Yokon that have to pay $217 for a 18 lb roast ,$12 fore 4 l liter of milk and still have to put diapers on there kids and it the fresh produce that really cost big money and Still need School supplies and winter clothing etc. wen a $20 box of 30-30 or a 243 can put a moose in the freezer for next 10 to 15 years

There is a big difference from a city guy that go hunting for two weeks each year
Compared to Sumone from up north that lives and works in grizzly country on a day-to-day basis
High school I spent in Stewart BC/hyder Alaska we would have grizzly bears in the yard all the time
I go into bear Country packing nothing but a 22 LR and fell perfectly safe but I would not go out of my way to hunt grizys with a 22 LR

 

[Gibbs505]

LOL, I know that sign and I also know Masset!
Living in the north means making choices! I endorse what Carverk means, although as I live in Terrace, I am not as bad off as he is!

 

[carverk]

LOL, I know that sign and I also know Masset!
Living in the north means making choices! I endorse what Carverk means, although as I live in Terrace, I am not as bad off as he is!

Misty River tackle Is an awesome little store for hunting and fishing supplies

I spent sum time in Terrace too when I was younger it's a shame the pine mushroom prices have bin so low the last few years I miss stomping around pick mushrooms I use to know all the patches from Terrace,Nass River , cranberry junction ,kitwanga,skeena crossing, hazleton like the back of my hand we would run into lost of bears sum patches 3 or 4 Grizly a day was the norm we would give them names Haahaa