PCC pick of the litter?

If we are talking competition, hunting, packing and range plinking the Raven9 has won out for me.
Despite the case bulging issues caused apparently by barrel head spacing and the FX9's inability to hold the bolt back due to the design of the bolt catch the gun I have, meets the four requirements I listed, ranks with the Ruger PCC as a close 2nd. I suspect the Smith will prove to be an acceptable gun for all four of my requirements.
From my experience:

Ruger PCC, heavy, reliable, accurate and every Glock OEM or after market mag worked. IMHO the standard version is the one to buy.

FX9 is accurate, reliable with all ammo I ran thru it. Fit and finish varies from one gun to the next. Most are magazine particular. IMHO the OEM buffer is way to light for the blow back design. This gun can be made into a decent shooter but from the factory my experience of one has not been steller.

SUB2K, mine was reliable with acceptable accuracy. The sights are primitive. If you are over 50 I suggest you use a drill and carefully widen the rear aperture sight. I did and found I found the sight more usable. For plinking it works, an Optic with a mount that allows the gun to be folded is the answer. McCarbo parts help. The gun works well as a range and bush plinker. If that is what you want the Sub2k fills the bill. There are better options.

Raven9 is to new to really comment. One range trip to sight in an optic does not make for a informed commentary. It fed 124 gr factory RN without issues using the KCI 10 rd mag it came with. It also locked back the bolt after the last round and there were no bulged cases. I have not installed the competition trigger but will. This gun has some nice features a,more detailed repot on a new thread will be forthcoming. The guns fit and finish is about as good as it gets. Everything is tight. The left side mag release may need some tlc but it is to early to tell.

We all are fans of the guns we buy so please don't get upset if your experience differs from mine. If we all thought the same thing there would be one happy lady in yhe room and a whole lot of unhappy ones.

Maple Leaf Up
Bob
 
Canuck44 said:
...We all are fans of the guns we buy so please don't get upset if your experience differs from mine. ...
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Good summary of your experiences Bob, thanks. You've got far more experience with PCCs than most of us here, so your opinion really is worth considering. In my opinion. ;)

Agreed, opinions and individual experiences can and should vary. But facts don't: Lightest and most compact is still the S2K, by a significant margin. Probably at this point we can also make the generalization that the most reliable option is the Ruger PCC in 9mm.

I think we were all pretty skeptical, but the Raven 9 does look very promising. I saw one in person and it easily has the best handling of all the AR-pattern options. I'm hoping for the best with it, mechanically.
 
joemanco said:
... The FPC falls into compromise territory, for those shooters who fit into that small territory the FPC will be perfection and they will love the firearm....
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Just like any tool, when it comes down to it all firearms are a compromise. What matters is whether it's the right compromise for you. Using any tool outside its intended application will often mean disappointment. If you don't have any use for the tool's intended application, that doesn't make it a bad tool.

The FPC doesn't appeal to me at all, but if it generally proves reliable and durable then I've no doubt it will become very popular.

Personally I'd like to see more PCCs on the market with the magazine located in the grip - For every design I've seen (S2K, FPC, Cx4 Storm, HiPoint) it seems to translate into the kind of balance and handling that I look for with this type of firearm. Chasing the AR layout has generally led to nose-heavy designs, made worse with unnecessarily heavy barrels and handguards. Lots of people don't seem to mind, but for any new buyer I'd strongly recommend handling options with different layouts side by side if at all possible. It would be easy to assume that you don't like PCCs in general if you only tried the models that didn't handle well for you.
 
alpining said:
Good summary of your experiences Bob, thanks. You've got far more experience with PCCs than most of us here, so your opinion really is worth considering. In my opinion. ;)

Agreed, opinions and individual experiences can and should vary. But facts don't: Lightest and most compact is still the S2K, by a significant margin. Probably at this point we can also make the generalization that the most reliable option is the Ruger PCC in 9mm.

I think we were all pretty skeptical, but the Raven 9 does look very promising. I saw one in person and it easily has the best handling of all the AR-pattern options. I'm hoping for the best with it, mechanically.
Click to expand...

Thanks. The Ruger certainly would get my vote for dead nuts reliability. Even in its plain Jane format the sucker is heavy but so is the CX4 Storm when you consider it is primarily made of polymer material. I have to say my Sub3K never choked on anything I fed it which was primarily my reloads using lead bullets cast by myself. The CZ Scorpian I once had or may have owned once was/is 100% reliable and easily the best carbine I have or might have owned. The CX 4 Storm also was 100% reliable with a terrible trigger. It seems though when you move to the AR style carbine made by smaller companies the reliability issue raises its ugly head. I am not an engineer or gunsmith and I don't play one on TV so I have no idea why this is the case. I suspect it is a case of perhaps not getting all the specs exactly right or not enough Beta testing but I read more comments about the smaller company made products then any other on average.

I have a friend here in Terrace who sprung for a pistol style carbine that cost about $2,800 cdn before tax and it is a jamamatic with his reloads and not much better with factory. Another friend in Boise, Idaho bought a 10MM pistol carbine ( really a handgun with a permanent buttstock and it went back to the factory as it would not eject cases regularly. Three months later the gun was returned to him without explanation but fixed. That gun was over $2,000 US. Kinda makes a $1K Ruger PCC look attractive doesn't it?

I'll have my FX9 back with both uppers on Thursday if the PO does it's thing. Both barrels were out of sync creating headspacing issues. The FX9 is a very good carbine but you would think in todays world headspacing and lock back issues would not be an issue, but there you are.

Off to the range to get the break in period for my Raven over with. So far so good. I few stoppages but that was expected.

Take Care

Bob
 
Canuck44 said:
Thanks. The Ruger certainly would get my vote for dead nuts reliability. Even in its plain Jane format the sucker is heavy but so is the CX4 Storm when you consider it is primarily made of polymer material. I have to say my Sub3K never choked on anything I fed it which was primarily my reloads using lead bullets cast by myself. The CZ Scorpian I once had or may have owned once was/is 100% reliable and easily the best carbine I have or might have owned. The CX 4 Storm also was 100% reliable with a terrible trigger. It seems though when you move to the AR style carbine made by smaller companies the reliability issue raises its ugly head. I am not an engineer or gunsmith and I don't play one on TV so I have no idea why this is the case. I suspect it is a case of perhaps not getting all the specs exactly right or not enough Beta testing but I read more comments about the smaller company made products then any other on average.

I have a friend here in Terrace who sprung for a pistol style carbine that cost about $2,800 cdn before tax and it is a jamamatic with his reloads and not much better with factory. Another friend in Boise, Idaho bought a 10MM pistol carbine ( really a handgun with a permanent buttstock and it went back to the factory as it would not eject cases regularly. Three months later the gun was returned to him without explanation but fixed. That gun was over $2,000 US. Kinda makes a $1K Ruger PCC look attractive doesn't it?

I'll have my FX9 back with both uppers on Thursday if the PO does it's thing. Both barrels were out of sync creating headspacing issues. The FX9 is a very good carbine but you would think in todays world headspacing and lock back issues would not be an issue, but there you are.

Off to the range to get the break in period for my Raven over with. So far so good. I few stoppages but that was expected.

Take Care

Bob
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i wouldnt say the ruger PC is 100% reliable

the extractor and ejector is a common issue that people have
 
GunNoob123 said:
i wouldnt say the ruger PC is 100% reliable

the extractor and ejector is a common issue that people have
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Dead nuts reliable is a c hair under 100%. :>). Breakage is one thing, design flaws quite another. One could argue Glocks are reliable but are on their 5th Gen.

Take Care

Bob.
 
I get they aren't PCCs, but where do pistol conversion kits fit into this mix?

Purely from a sports action shooting perspective (because Restricted).
For example: inferior to all PCCs; better than some NRs; better than all NRs; better than some Rs; just incomparable?

Thanks
 
joemanco said:
I get they aren't PCCs, but where do pistol conversion kits fit into this mix?

Purely from a sports action shooting perspective (because Restricted).
For example: inferior to all PCCs; better than some NRs; better than all NRs; better than some Rs; just incomparable?

Thanks
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I have the Kidon kit from Israel. With either my 92fs or m&p pro it is a great option IMHO. I am told it is legal in IPSC and not in IDPA. I'll have to get a US ruling on it. I am not sure where it would fit in US Steel competitions either. Those of you who shoot those competitions can weigh in with the answer.

As far as a comparison my M&P Pro installed in the kit will do everything my PCC's will do out to 100 yards with a better trigger. If you are not aware of thr Kidon Kit google it. The kit is worth a,look if it is legal in the sport you shoot. I think it is better than the kits that just add a buttstock.

Take Care
Bob
 
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I have approx 1000 rounds through my Ruger PCC. Mix and match of different ammo makes and grains, not 1 issue to date. Cabela's currently has them on for $849.99.
 
Took the ruger out on Sunday for the first time and it was very easy to handle and had no issues. The look and finish is pretty basic but I'd say is decent value for the money.
 
Warren1 said:
I have approx 1000 rounds through my Ruger PCC. Mix and match of different ammo makes and grains, not 1 issue to date. Cabela's currently has them on for $849.99.
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This mirrors my experience, although I have around 2500 through mine so far.

I've put another 500 or so through the Raven and it works better with the KCI mags, although it still occasionally tries to send a round between the roof of the receiver and the rear of the chamber - probably 4 or 5 of those in those 500 rounds - I have around 1000 through it so far.
 
Belted is your Raven trending better as to reliability? So far I have had a couple of double feeds. I am hardly into the break in period. The KCI mag that came with the gun works fine.

Take Care
Bob
 
I'm going to go with a tentative 'yes'.

So far everything has been RUAG Sintox ammo (it has very small primer flash holes and not suitable for reloading), and I have another 2500 rounds of the stuff.
 
Beltfed I hope i haven't put a curse on your next range visit. :>)


I get my FX9 back on Thursday so testing will be equally divided. My FX9 has had issues locking the bolt back on the last round, said to be fixed and of course major head spacing problems which are said to be fixed with two new barrels. Hopefully the issues are resolved and life at the range will return to normal.

Take Care

Bob
 
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Canuck44 said:
Beltfed I hope i haven't put a curse on your next range visit. :>)


I get my FX9 back on Thursday so testing will be equally divided. My FX9 has had issues locking the bolt back on the last round, said to be fixed and of course major head spacing problems which are said to be fixed with two new barrels. Hopefully the issues are resolved and life at the range will return to normal.

Take Care

Bob
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How did you found and verified you had a headspace problem?
 
Horilka said:
How did you found and verified you had a headspace problem?
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From the gunsmith at Wolverine. He replaced both barrels ie 18.5" & 10" upper. He said on at least one of thr barrels only 2/3 of the case was supported. I will be at the range this afternoon to confirm both barrels are extracting unbulged cases. The gun is now locking back all my Mags now as well. I will replace the 3oz buffer with an 11oz buffer I already have. I may use the 3oz later when shooting steel shoots with bunny fart loads. I have quite a,bit of testing to do and some may have to wait until spring. We are getting a lot of cool rain right now and it isn't a lot of fun when the temp gets to 0C. I like to read books when the weather gets cold. I grew up in Edmonton so our winters here are like Alberta's fall. :>).

Maple Leaf Up.

Bob
 
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