PCC pick of the litter?

I just got notified my Raven left Lockhart this morning. It likely wont arrive until Monday. With the Military Discount the gun came in at $2,100. I got got a Lockhart Magwell and the Competition trigger. Both will get installed when the gun arrives. Nothing yet on my FX 9. I'll get hold of Wolverine late next week for an update.

Take Care

Bob
 
JR carbine in .45ACP is very reliable and fun to shoot
Hi-point 9mm that many sneer at is also very reliable and fun to shoot and stupid accurate I might add..
If you can find Ruger 44Mag Carbine or “Deerfield” get it, you will certainly not regret it! They need to be kept clean and you need to reload to afford shooting tho.
 
Well it took 5 weeks, but the TNW firing pin, spring, and retaining thingy (a little mushroom made of steel which rides in the bolt and limits motion of the pin) got here today. Cool. Whizzed right through CBSA even though it said TNW Firearms on the return address. Cool.
 
Another vote for the Ruger PC Carbine, super reliable, accurate and easy to shoot quickly

KAHEJUH.jpg
 
I like the Ruger as well, but heavier than it needs to be IMO. I've been giving a lot of thought to the Sub2K 2nd gen as it is lighter, easier to back pack and bring out. My Ruger is probably the ugliest set up of any, but functionally perfect for the gun. I run a Bushnell TRS25 because it's the lowest optic I could find, and can pretty much use the irons without removing it. It sits in a Midwest Industries chassis, with the Ruger removable stock, and the Ruger traditional forearm. The M.I. chassis has a lower rear stock mount and keeps the comb low enough to use the irons, unlike the Ruger pistol grip chassis which has a higher rear stock mount.

VkE0x4N.jpg


Just before the OIC, I bought a Primary Weapons Systems PCC after trying almost all of the available options. IMO 9-10 inch is the ideal barrel length for all the things I want on it, and comfortable ergonomics. It was my perfect 9mm AR style carbine. I bought the traditional stock Ruger PCC, for non-competition shooting and bush play, then had to reconfigure it after the OIC, but can kept the Ruger stock and can swap it in a few minutes if I want a less scary look for crown land.

VoFyaxJ.jpg
 
JACKSMYDOG said:
I like the Ruger as well, but heavier than it needs to be IMO. I've been giving a lot of thought to the Sub2K 2nd gen as it is lighter, easier to back pack and bring out. My Ruger is probably the ugliest set up of any, but functionally perfect for the gun. ...
Click to expand...

Similar thoughts on the Ruger here. It generally works (though not always without problems), but I find the weight unwelcome and the handling is simply unpleasant. No, yours is not nice to look at, but if you've got it set up how you like then that's what matters.

Also similar thoughts on the KelTec Sub2K gen2. Compared to the Ruger, it's far, far lighter, significantly shorter in firing mode, more compact when packed, and much better handling (for me). If you want max packability, see if you can figure out a way to be happy with the iron sights. Adding an optic really messes with this. I put a fixed RDS on mine and am totally happy with it because literally the only time I fold it is for cleaning.

See if you can handle the S&W FPC for comparison - I was very skeptical about it until I handled one in person. It is not quite as light as the S2K but has a nice balance.
 
The FPC from S&W is so much better than the Sub2k. I sold my Sub a few years ago. It was ok but after I shot a friend's Smith....If you want a light well well made folding carbine just buy the Smith. You can drop a couple hundred dollars on McCarbo parts into the Sub2K and still not have what you get in the Smith. Just saying.

Take Care

Bob
 
I think the current KelTec Sub2K gen2 as it leaves the factory is just about perfect for what it is. Sure, many mods are available, but none are necessary if you use it for what it was designed for.

The S&W FPC is clearly an attempt at a copy. It's not a bad attempt, but I'm not sure it's a good attempt either. It's an improvement in a few ways, but it falls short in many other ways. If it holds up long term then it will be a good addition to the market.

There are pros and cons with both, and it really depends what you're looking for.
 
The biggest drawback with the S&W is the lack of Glock mags, lol. Otherwise it has most of what I want, barring the lack of irons and 3/4lb heavier than the S2k.

A few local store have both in stock so I can do a side by side comparison one of these days.
 
The Ruger PC 9mm is a fine firearm. Mine loves 124gr Blaser ammo, the 115gr ammo is a little all over the place, shot mine out to 200y and have a very decent group of 3 inches.
I have the AR look a like. Holosun 510C with a Holosun 3x Magnifier. Contemplating on switching to a LPVO
 
A fellow showed up at the range yesterday with this; Smith & Wesson® M&P FPC Rifle. My immediate, and I expect my lasting impression, is to avoid this plastic abomination. Worst cheap plastic sights I have ever seen, and a metre high at 50 yards out of the box. Every fired case was fully soot covered down the entire length of one side. I cannot unsee this thing. Only $1,000 at Cabelas...
 
Last edited:
woodllotowner you know the black soot on the outside of the case is common among blowback 9MM carbines. Every 9MM carbine from the MP5 to the Sub2K that I have shot exhibits what you describe. The FPC doesn't come with sights from the factory. You buy either an Optic for it or I guess some might buy iron sights that are adjustable. Are you sure you had the M&P in your hands. The Sub 2K comes with plastic sights which are adequate for what they are.

Take Care

Bob
 
woodlotowner said:
A fellow showed up at the range yesterday with this; Smith & Wesson® M&P FPC Rifle. My immediate, and I expect my lasting impression, is to avoid this plastic abomination. Worst cheap plastic sights I have ever seen, and a metre high at 50 yards out of the box. Every fired case was fully soot covered down the entire length of one side. I cannot unsee this thing. Only $1,000 at Cabelas...
Click to expand...

Were they OEM sights? I didn't think it came with sights, and the pic rail seems too far forward for anything but infinite red dot?

The FPC is great. Great as a sales agent for the Ruger PC and the S2K (the options either side of it in price and portability).
 
joemanco S&W doesn't make plastic sights nor dow it ship the gun with any form of iron sights. Your observation is correct about the Optics. The Sub2K is a neat little plinker but quality wise it is not is the same league as the Smith, the above comments notwithstanding. The gun is what it is. For light weight and packing with the foldability the Smith is so much better than the Sub2k. For plinking at the range under 25 yards the Sub 2k works, for anything more in stock configuration the Smith is worth the extra few dollars. Both need an optic. For the Smith, any will do. For the Sub2K you have to get a swing out mount if you want to retain the foldability. The extra mount will cost you more than the price savings over the Smith.

I get the Sub2k has its followers but really it's use is quite limited.

Take Care

Bob
 
Agree that soot is pretty common with straight blowback actions, but it doesn't happen all the time. It's very ammunition dependent.

That FPC woodlotowner saw must have had aftermarket BUIS mounted, and I'm not surprised that they didn't work well. No fault of the rifle, the FPC design really does demand an optic. Sure, most people probably prefer using a red dot on both, but the S2K doesn't force you to. If the iron sights don't work for you, that's too bad. But they work for lots of people.

I don't know how anyone can say the FPC packs better than the S2K. While they're both really close in length, the FPC is significantly worse in every other way that matters: heavier, thicker, taller. And when folded, the S2K is far, far more packable.

Fit and finish, sure, the FPC probably seems nicer to most people, but not everybody cares much about that. I'm more interested to see how the design holds up in the long term, and what kind of warranty support S&W has for it. The S2K was a truly ingenious design and has proven itself. The FPC is a not-so-original copy, with some strange design choices (buttstock, LOP, grip length, bolt release, safety location etc.).

I'm glad we have options. I strongly recommend anyone in the market to check them out in person and see for themselves.
 
Yeh, the FPC forward rail was the deal breaker for me - it's foldable USP was about being optic friendly ... but uh ... fail.

Worth knowing that the S2K is considerably smaller volume than the FPC (especially after a necessary optic is attached to the FPC) @~50% less. And the S2K is considerably cheaper than the FPC (especially after a necessary optic is attached to the FPC) @~30% less (including 2 extra mags). There's some weight saving too @~20%. Red dot mount costs for the S2K are unimportant because it has built in sights and adding an optic compromises its USP (even with those fancy mounts).

So, if portability is a primary criteria there are better options than the FPC. Or, if portability is not a primary criteria there are (different) better options than the FPC. The FPC falls into compromise territory, for those shooters who fit into that small territory the FPC will be perfection and they will love the firearm.

Whereas those who own S2Ks are generally easy going about its failings, often joking about the inadequacies or inventing something to compensate - while knowing the S2K is the pick of the litter for portability.
 
My apologies here. I assumed the cheap plastic sights were factory. Also, my Ruger PCC brass does not look remotely that sooty. I was comparing it to my Ruger and there is no comparison. :) In the end, we did convince the fellow to try an optic on it, which, by the sound of things, should make it a good shooting carbine.
 
I’m surprised there isn’t more love for the Raven 9. They are light weight, handle great, take glock mags. Fit and finish is high quality and from what I’ve seen they work very well
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom