Sig550 Vs Xcr
- Thread starter LibertyorDeath
- Start date
I have no problems with the SIG's. I think they are excellent rifles. I never said they were anything but.
That being said, it is the XCR bashing that I think is undeserved. For a rifle that is positioned in all terms between a SIG (nice, reliable and expensive) and an AR (cheap, light) I think the XCR has positioned itself perfectly. It is a step up from the ARs and significantly cheaper than the SIGs. The bashing is undeserved. I will be buying another one when the XCR-M come out.
Beltfed: Of course you can flip the rifle on it's side as well, but now you are breaking eye lock and are repositioning the rifle. You disagree that for righty's (the majority) that a left sided charging handle is simply a better design?
That being said, it is the XCR bashing that I think is undeserved. For a rifle that is positioned in all terms between a SIG (nice, reliable and expensive) and an AR (cheap, light) I think the XCR has positioned itself perfectly. It is a step up from the ARs and significantly cheaper than the SIGs. The bashing is undeserved. I will be buying another one when the XCR-M come out.
Beltfed: Of course you can flip the rifle on it's side as well, but now you are breaking eye lock and are repositioning the rifle. You disagree that for righty's (the majority) that a left sided charging handle is simply a better design?
It's not really fair to say one is better than the other, unless you are looking at it from a who-has-been-around-longer standpoint. For example, I love my XD. I would choose it over a Glock ANY day. But there are people who LOVE their Glock, and would be happy to point out all the things they don't like about MY firearm.
The point is... Both rifles have their good points and their bad points. There is no such thing as a universally loved rifle. There will always be people who don't like it.
So, if you own an XCR and love it, that's great. If you don't like them, and don't want one, fine. But in the end it comes down to the individual's experience with the rifle. I would say the best way to help make a decision is to find someone who has one and will allow you to shoot it. Have a range day and get to know the weapon a little. That is the best deciding factor of all.
And good gravy, quit with the fanboy accusations. It's a silly term. We all have our favorites for good reasons.
The point is... Both rifles have their good points and their bad points. There is no such thing as a universally loved rifle. There will always be people who don't like it.
So, if you own an XCR and love it, that's great. If you don't like them, and don't want one, fine. But in the end it comes down to the individual's experience with the rifle. I would say the best way to help make a decision is to find someone who has one and will allow you to shoot it. Have a range day and get to know the weapon a little. That is the best deciding factor of all.
And good gravy, quit with the fanboy accusations. It's a silly term. We all have our favorites for good reasons.
You're correct in terms of pricing, although in truth, the XCR should retail for 1/3 the price of the SIG instead of 2/3.
However, the only advantage the XCR has over the AR-15 is that it is non-restricted. I wonder how many XCRs would be sold if the AR was de-restricted tomorrow?
Riiight.... Read the first sentence...then the second. Then tell me again that you are being logical and forthright.
Who ever said it was better than a SIG? Not I. I'm saying it is competitively positioned in the marketplace and is a viable option for those wanting to save $1k over the Sigs. It has some nice features that separate it from the rest. It has it's own viable niche right in between the AR's and the SIGs.
Heaven forbid anyone not think like you. Your gospel is the right one and you are the messiah we have all been waiting for. Talk about BS.
Again, I never said the XCR was better. If fact I believe statements such as better are completely useless. They are different products that share only the term "black rifle" and a caliber. This is not The Highlander and we are not in a position of "There can only be one." Just as with sports cars, yes, the Bugatti Veryon is probably one of the nicer ones, but that doesn't mean that the corvette, RX8, lambos and ferraris don't have a place in the market as well. If you like to think that the SIGs are the alpha and omega of black rifles so be it, but let's be objective here. Your overblown BS puts down a new product that many people are very happy with and very excited about.
If you feel the need to make yourself feel better by proclaiming other peoples stuff is junk then I suggest therapy because you are not helping anyone here.
As a final thought, for all the talk about military "proven" rifles, a very good friend of mine was a small arms armourer in the Canadian Army and another one is for the Navy. They both complain to no end about the crap they keep getting. Battle proven means that a team of dedicated specialists and countless man hours of relal world testing sort out the lemons pretty quickly. I have absolutely no doubt that the militaries that use the swiss arms/SIG weapons have EXACTLY the same problems. The same thing goes for police and mercenary forces. For all your hype about 30 years of battle proven reliability amounts to is ####. I've never met the "maytag man" of military amourers. They are constantly separating the lemons from the shooters for all brands of rifles and pistols. Look in the SIG forums and you'll see a ton of NIB malfunctions and defects as well. People like you take a companies reputation for reliability as proof that they can do no wrong. I'm calling YOU on your bull####. The support forums are full of lemon SIGs.
The XCR is not perfect. In fact my problems with the rifle are:
1) Chamfering of bolt face. Pierced about 1 in ~100-200 primers. I fixed it myself based on immediate feedback from Terra at Robinson Arms. They offered to send me a new bolt right away, but I asked for a simpler solution. Their service ROCKED for me. True it never should have happened in the first place, but for a serial number at about 1000, I think I'll just take my man-up pill and quit whining. #### happens.
2) The cotter pin that hold the main pin in place is a poor design decision. A 5 cent E-clip fixes that. But true for the price I paid, I would have preferred a two piece spring loaded "press and twist" pin. This would have solved the problem of loosing such a small and weak little piece.
So if I include the cost of fixing the bolt face (free) plus the cost of the e-clip ($0.05) I come up with a grand total of SFA.
The XCR is not perfect and they had some problems getting out of the gate. The fact that it happened at the begining I'm sure has done irreparable damage to their brand. That is a business mistake on their part. but that does not negate that this is a very desirable and well designed rifle. The criticism I'm hearing is undeserved.
Had a Pe-90 and hated it, sold in under 2 weeks of putting 2000 rounds thruw it, had a XCR and did not like it, but honestly after only 1000 rounds it was hardly brocken in. Does that make one platform better than the other no, it's personnal preferance nothing more. I hate glocks, can't hit #### with them and they hurt my hands, but I love my para, does that make para ordonnance superior to glock of course not, just my personnal choice on the mather
Them 3/4 of my fun with guns is putting them togetter and machining my own parts... must be why I own 9 ars.
Them 3/4 of my fun with guns is putting them togetter and machining my own parts... must be why I own 9 ars.
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Davy Crockett
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Fraser Valley
I don't understand the emotion from some of the XCR haters. Is this some sort of leftover US political crap from ARF.com? What did Robinson Arms do to you? It's just a friggen gun!
IMHO what it boils down to is we are comparing apples and oranges. The SAN and AR rifles are produced by major arms producers, have been through years of gov't trials and actual combat to get where they are today.
Besides, how many issues didn't the M16 have? Can anyone attest to problems the SIG may have had early on? The XCR is made by a small (relatively) manufacturer and essentially getting it's trials by the end user. Don't like that? Don't buy a new rifle from a private company. Who else out there is there has a from the ground up new rifle on the market to compare to? At this point in it's development cycle I'd bet the XCR is doing just fine comparatively.
As for value, I'm not an expert, I just like to shoot, but I'd say the build quality and material of my XCR is better than my Stag AR. Factor the quad rail and MI flip up sights, non-restricted status and $1800 is not OTL. If a AR180b can sell for $1000 there's no way the XCR should be in the same price range. As for the SIG I've never shot one much less owned one but I'm sure they are worth every penny however for 1k more than an XCR they ought to be good.
IMHO what it boils down to is we are comparing apples and oranges. The SAN and AR rifles are produced by major arms producers, have been through years of gov't trials and actual combat to get where they are today.
Besides, how many issues didn't the M16 have? Can anyone attest to problems the SIG may have had early on? The XCR is made by a small (relatively) manufacturer and essentially getting it's trials by the end user. Don't like that? Don't buy a new rifle from a private company. Who else out there is there has a from the ground up new rifle on the market to compare to? At this point in it's development cycle I'd bet the XCR is doing just fine comparatively.
As for value, I'm not an expert, I just like to shoot, but I'd say the build quality and material of my XCR is better than my Stag AR. Factor the quad rail and MI flip up sights, non-restricted status and $1800 is not OTL. If a AR180b can sell for $1000 there's no way the XCR should be in the same price range. As for the SIG I've never shot one much less owned one but I'm sure they are worth every penny however for 1k more than an XCR they ought to be good.
You not really gonna compare Swiss Arms quality control to that of Robarms are you? The Robarms that has used its customers now and in the past to field test thier rifles and uses them as their basic R&D tool with several revisions until they get it right.
If Robarms had better quality control you would end up being taken more seriously as a high end manufacturer deserving of selling your wares at such high end pricing. Until then your rifles are at best a non restricted anonmaly that some are willing to spend money on soley to skirt our ludricrous gun laws up here, nothing more.
I would have purchased your last rifle, but all the negative reports I heard on it and the fact that it need additional parts to function well, sort of put me off.
Generally one doesnt hear lots of negative comments on the Swiss stuff
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Throttle_monkey1
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
so again, using technical explanations, what makes the sig better than the xcr??
Eg, I think the ar15 has some fundamental flaws, the first being DI. Piston system is cleaner and more reliable. Period. I prefer the short stroke piston system over the long stroke. (vz58>xcr,pe90,ak47 piston set up)
The ar shouldn't have a spring loaded ejector. Can #### the bed too easily.
The ar bolt has 8 lugs. They are small, and weaker than other systems.
If those things were changed, I think the ar would be much more reliable
Eg, I think the ar15 has some fundamental flaws, the first being DI. Piston system is cleaner and more reliable. Period. I prefer the short stroke piston system over the long stroke. (vz58>xcr,pe90,ak47 piston set up)
The ar shouldn't have a spring loaded ejector. Can #### the bed too easily.
The ar bolt has 8 lugs. They are small, and weaker than other systems.
If those things were changed, I think the ar would be much more reliable
whats unreliable about DI? Other than maybe in a SBR where the action gets fouled up abit quicker I dont get why its suppose to be unreliable. I thought the main reason for piston was supposively just so its cleaner- isnt piston fractionally less accurate as well?
Throttle_monkey1
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
Well, the di system gums up from gases, resulting in more jams etc.
None of my other semis get nearly as gummed up. Piston guns can be fractionally less accurate. Some people say that short stroke pistons are more accurate than long stroke guns. The pe90 is super accurate, so is an AR.
I think DI is inferior.
None of my other semis get nearly as gummed up. Piston guns can be fractionally less accurate. Some people say that short stroke pistons are more accurate than long stroke guns. The pe90 is super accurate, so is an AR.
I think DI is inferior.
No, I made no comparison. Sometimes our QC is not what it's supposed to be. It's part of being such a small operation - trusted employees cut corners, and we all suffer for it. I am definitely not saying our QC is better than theirs. What I meant by my statement is that it all comes down to personal preference when it comes to civilians buying firearms. Some will like your product, some won't. It has to be a decision made by the person looking into it, ultimately.
So no, I am not saying we are better in any way. Every firearm has its good points and bad. I am no engineer, nor am I nearly as technologically oriented as half of you boys... so please, try not to read between the lines. What I say is what I mean. The XCR is a good rifle, I love mine, and yes, Swiss QC is better.
And for the record, we have done massive amounts of R&D on our own end. Every time a new project goes into effect, we get 50+ phone calls of people begging to be Beta testers. It's our way of making them a part of the company.
my XCR has worked 100%,.....thats right,...100%. I have only shot approx. 600rds or so out of it. I used a mix of everything,..on #2 setting. I have shot Wolf 62gr and 55gr,...Federal BTHP 55gr,...military 62gr,...Federal TUR or RTU....or whatever it was. I used it at the NB provincial 3 gun and came in 2nd overall in Open division, and 2nd in Open rifle. THe only thing I may do differently,,..is put a comp on the end to replace the aged A2 style flash hider,..put a magwell on it,...and hope that RA put out a lighter trigger for it. I think a lighter spring kit in it would suffice. The break is clean on the 2nd stage,..but is still too heavy IMHO.
scorpio_21
Regular
- Location
- Western Canada
I've still got an XCR on order and I think I will go ahead and purchase it, even after reading all of this, given RA is so willing to help their customers get back up and running.
My NIB SIG P229 broke (takedown lever) a few weeks back after a Black Badge class and I'm still waiting for replacement parts. I couldn't use it for my first competition and it's still sitting there useless. It's under warranty, and the best they can do is ship me a part and I'll pay to have it fixed by a local shop... or ship it via the Canadian Rep and wait half a year. QC at a "Swiss" company didn't buy me piece of mind and I paid more than 2x what Norinco's clone went for.
YMMV
My NIB SIG P229 broke (takedown lever) a few weeks back after a Black Badge class and I'm still waiting for replacement parts. I couldn't use it for my first competition and it's still sitting there useless. It's under warranty, and the best they can do is ship me a part and I'll pay to have it fixed by a local shop... or ship it via the Canadian Rep and wait half a year. QC at a "Swiss" company didn't buy me piece of mind and I paid more than 2x what Norinco's clone went for.
YMMV
I think we should add the fact that customer service from Robarm is here duking it out with all the naysayers. I don't see SIG, Stag or anyone else from the other manufacturers here.
My one service issue was solved with hours of posting my problem on their forum. Terra's suggested resolution was accurate and complete. When I suggested that I wanted to fix it myself, she sent me a diagram of what I needed to do because I didn't want to wait for post/customs delays.
Let's talk about service and the problems ALL of the other manufacturer have. Can any of the AR/SIG reps in this thread please stand up?
My one service issue was solved with hours of posting my problem on their forum. Terra's suggested resolution was accurate and complete. When I suggested that I wanted to fix it myself, she sent me a diagram of what I needed to do because I didn't want to wait for post/customs delays.
Let's talk about service and the problems ALL of the other manufacturer have. Can any of the AR/SIG reps in this thread please stand up?
My point is that all the banter in this thread about which side a charging handle is on amounts to nothing if you are properly trained on it's use.
Likewise for mag releases, HODs, etc.
I have no idea what you are refering to when you say 'eye lock' -if you are refering to a cheek weld, then yes you would break cheek weld -but then you'd likely do it anyhow regardless of the charging handle position.
If you want to quote me, please quote the entire thought, and not just clips.
I followed that up with real word experience with the XCR and the manufacturer from other users. 'If it quacks like a duck...it's probably a duck'
As with any mechanical device, they will all eventually fail.
Most rifles in the Canadian military, as most militaries, see a hard life. This life is a good measure of rifles. The Sig has survived in this environment for 30+ years and the XCR...exactly zero.
Read into that what you will.
Sig forums are full of PE-90 failures? Sure they are.
I don't fly a company's flag, and I'm not venomently defending the PE-90. I can tell you from personal experience that they are extremely well build, reliable and accurate. Don't believe me though, there is enough information out there claiming the same things. And just the opposite for the XCR. Coincidence? I think not.
