TACCOM24 Sterling arms R18 mk3 .223

[Zortron]

For every extra $1 spent on the factory floor, the retail price goes up by $2. .

Why?

Establish an acceptable profit per gun and pass the extra cost to manufacture in an ideal configuration onto the consumer 1:1.

Unless you mean that the third party manufacturers will charge more. At that point, negotiate.

Personally I am skeptical of foreign outsourcing and still think $2k is high for this kind of gun. “Canadian-made” needs to be a mark of distinction again, instead of apparently meaning “more expensive, but also worse.”

 

[Bartok5]

Why?

Establish an acceptable profit per gun and pass the extra cost to manufacture in an ideal configuration onto the consumer 1:1.

Unless you mean that the third party manufacturers will charge more. At that point, negotiate.

Personally I am skeptical of foreign outsourcing and still think $2k is high for this kind of gun. “Canadian-made” needs to be a mark of distinction again, instead of apparently meaning “more expensive, but also worse.”

Don't expect me to explain the economics of firearms manufacture involving off-shore manufacturing - I'm just a gun reviewer repeating what I was told by the Chief Designer of the Mk3 and it's SAI Production Manager. I assume that like everrything else they told me about their new rifle design, it is true for reasons that are beyond my and apparently your comprehension.

I think that if you look at what is available elsehwere specifically from Canadian manufacturers, you will find that you get far less for more money with the Lockhart Raven, the Spectre Arms WK-180 Gen3, or the Crusader Arms Templar Gen 2 than you do for the R18 Mk3's $1800 price tag. The Crusader Crypto, being a straight-up AR with a proprietary mag-well is a creature all of its own, comprised largely of readily available, low-cost commercial parts. Comparisons with entirely new firearms designs and their manufacture from billet materials are simply not relevant.

"Canadian-made" can no longer compete against first-world manufacturing capacity in emerging economies with cheap labour such as Turkey. They are running robotic CNC machinery to pump out components that meet stringent international ISO standards, then applying a true mil-spec Type 5 Hardcoat Anodizing. No Canadian company paying a proper machinist's wage can compete. And no small-batch Canadian manufacturer can hope to compete with the design engineering and production capability provided by an established defence manufacturing company such as ADKAS. They are the Turkish equivalent of Daniel Defense, Colt Canada, or Lewis Machine and Tool.

You are absolutely wrong that $2K is high for a rifle like the R18 Mk 3. It takes the $4500 HK416's self-regulating Gas System and marries it to the $3500 SIG MCX's Action in a nicely finished rifle package costing just $1800! If you can't afford an entry level rifle such as the R18 Mk3, perhaps you need to look elsewhere for a hobby....

 

[Horilka]

I think that if you look at what is available elsehwere specifically from Canadian manufacturers, you will find that you get far less for more money with the Lockhart Raven, the Spectre Arms WK-180 Gen3, or the Crusader Arms Templar Gen 2 than you do for the R18 Mk3's $1800 price tag. The Crusader Crypto, being a straight-up AR with a proprietary mag-well is a creature all of its own, comprised largely of readily available, low-cost commercial parts. Comparisons with entirely new firearms designs and their manufacture from billet materials are simply not relevant.

And even with low-cost ready available and mass-produced commercial parts and receiver of lower grade aluminum Crypto is pricier than Mk 3.

And no small-batch Canadian manufacturer can hope to compete with the design engineering and production capability provided by an established defence manufacturing company such as ADKAS. They are the Turkish equivalent of Daniel Defense, Colt Canada, or Lewis Machine and Tool.

I don't think ADKAS is comparable to DD, CC and LMT. ADKAS is small manufacturer, the only complete product they make for army is grenade launcher, plus they claim they manufacture parts for other items.
However, even with this limited portfolio I would rather trust this company than small-shop Canadian operations we saw in last years.

 

[Scotty454]

Don't expect me to explain the economics of firearms manufacture involving off-shore manufacturing - I'm just a gun reviewer repeating what I was told by the Chief Designer of the Mk3 and it's SAI Production Manager. I assume that like everrything else they told me about their new rifle design, it is true for reasons that are beyond my and apparently your comprehension.

I think that if you look at what is available elsehwere specifically from Canadian manufacturers, you will find that you get far less for more money with the Lockhart Raven, the Spectre Arms WK-180 Gen3, or the Crusader Arms Templar Gen 2 than you do for the R18 Mk3's $1800 price tag. The Crusader Crypto, being a straight-up AR with a proprietary mag-well is a creature all of its own, comprised largely of readily available, low-cost commercial parts. Comparisons with entirely new firearms designs and their manufacture from billet materials are simply not relevant.

"Canadian-made" can no longer compete against first-world manufacturing capacity in emerging economies with cheap labour such as Turkey. They are running robotic CNC machinery to pump out components that meet stringent international ISO standards, then applying a true mil-spec Type 5 Hardcoat Anodizing. No Canadian company paying a proper machinist's wage can compete. And no small-batch Canadian manufacturer can hope to compete with the design engineering and production capability provided by an established defence manufacturing company such as ADKAS. They are the Turkish equivalent of Daniel Defense, Colt Canada, or Lewis Machine and Tool.

You are absolutely wrong that $2K is high for a rifle like the R18 Mk 3. It takes the $4500 HK416's self-regulating Gas System and marries it to the $3500 SIG MCX's Action in a nicely finished rifle package costing just $1800! If you can't afford an entry level rifle such as the R18 Mk3, perhaps you need to look elsewhere for a hobby....

CNC machines are only as good as the people programming, setting up, and running them. Even if the programming and set-ups are perfect (Which is absolutely not guaranteed in places like China, Turkey), things degrade over time as tools wear. Unless you have automated probing, measuring, tool changing based on preset load parameters, etc, even fully automated setups can go to sh!t if they're not taken care of. Where I'm going with this is that every step in the process matters to quality; you need competent people at all of them to get reliably good parts, which there almost surely won't be in the cut-rate off-shore shops. You can pump out garbage on a CNC faster than conventional methods, lol.

The reason the bigger companies have success with off-shore manufacturing is that they're big enough that they have the resources to actually oversee and control processes there. We will have to wait and see how SAI does, but I can almost guarantee you there will be QC issues. That's the trade-off; cheaper manufacturing costs for lower, or at the very least, inconsistent quality. There's no free lunch, if it were cheaper, guaranteed quality everyone would be doing it. The material used can also be questionable, unless you're supplying it or can trace where it came from. Local manufacturing allows control over ALL of these factors, off-shore manufacturing does not. It's a dice roll; sometimes you get great parts, sometimes you don't, and the recourse options if you don't are much more limited.

 

[FrostyFeet]

CNC machines are only as good as the people programming, setting up, and running them. Even if the programming and set-ups are perfect (Which is absolutely not guaranteed in places like China, Turkey), things degrade over time as tools wear. Unless you have automated probing, measuring, tool changing based on preset load parameters, etc, even fully automated setups can go to sh!t if they're not taken care of. Where I'm going with this is that every step in the process matters to quality; you need competent people at all of them to get reliably good parts, which there almost surely won't be in the cut-rate off-shore shops. You can pump out garbage on a CNC faster than conventional methods, lol.

The reason the bigger companies have success with off-shore manufacturing is that they're big enough that they have the resources to actually oversee and control processes there. We will have to wait and see how SAI does, but I can almost guarantee you there will be QC issues. That's the trade-off; cheaper manufacturing costs for lower, or at the very least, inconsistent quality. There's no free lunch, if it were cheaper, guaranteed quality everyone would be doing it. The material used can also be questionable, unless you're supplying it or can trace where it came from. Local manufacturing allows control over ALL of these factors, off-shore manufacturing does not. It's a dice roll; sometimes you get great parts, sometimes you don't, and the recourse options if you don't are much more limited.

I agree. It's kind of like a Benelli M4 compared to a Canuck operator. Sure there's material differences and brand recognition that you're paying for, but a huge cost is the control processes and the guarantee of quality and consistent reliability.

Do I think it's worth it to offer is a rifle at such a good price? Yes, and if final assembly is being done here by Sterling Arms, it should offer plenty of opportunity to check tolerances.

 

[Scotty454]

I agree. It's kind of like a Benelli M4 compared to a Canuck operator. Sure there's material differences and brand recognition that you're paying for, but a huge cost is the control processes and the guarantee of quality and consistent reliability.

Do I think it's worth it to offer is a rifle at such a good price? Yes, and if final assembly is being done here by Sterling Arms, it should offer plenty of opportunity to check tolerances.

For sure, a final QC step will prevent some of the errors from making it to consumers. But if they're getting say 20% with deviations of varying severity, expect some of that to either make it out the door, ooor prices to go up. This whole situation is being received as absolute best case scenario, which rarely ends up happening lol.

 

[I Dont Care About You]

So for ones $1800.00, will this be an actual AR180 platform that works?

I know in this Canadian market that's a lot to ask for, but so is $1800.00 before taxes.

Can someone educate me on this? Obviously I'm no tacti-cool expert, but maybe a guy needs to wait until a reliable AR-15 can be purchased once we all flush the Turd and his sell-out Singh sidekick!.......

Have you checked out the Bren2 and other SA black rifles available in Canada for $4500 and up? Trust me, $1800 is not a lot to spend on a decent SA rifle in Canada. You are gonna spend a lot more than that, feeding the thing.

Does anyone know if it still takes ar mags? The crypto is a deal breaker for me.

The Crypto is a non-restricted, new manufacture AR15 that is not an AR15. It is a completely different proposition from an AR180 based rifle.

The entire point of reducing the length of the Gas System down to Carbine length on the R18 Mk3 is to enhance the rifle's inherent accuracy, thereby allowing the successful use of a Pencil Barrel again.

How will the increased dwell on the gas system going to affect cycling and reliability? A SA rifle needs to be balanced between BCG weight, spring rate and gas pressure/dwell. This is all a non-trivial problem to solve. Typically a shorter gas system will cause cycling problems.

Is there any chance of offering the rifle with a milspec trigger (un-installed, in bag, to save the labor time)? Trigger tech is nice but a worked in milspec is fine for me and could cut a couple hundred off.

No company on earth would ever offer such a thing. You want a company to allow idiot customers to install a supplied trigger and then accept the risks of the thing being installed incorrectly? Good luck with that.

"Canadian-made" can no longer compete against first-world manufacturing capacity in emerging economies with cheap labour such as Turkey. They are running robotic CNC machinery to pump out components that meet stringent international ISO standards,

As someone noted above, it's not necessarily the machinery that makes the quality. Machinery (tooling) wears and can be programmed and/or operated poorly. It will be the QC process that makes or breaks any product. We have seen a lack of proper or effective QC sink numerous gun products in this country in the past. The primary problem is that most company hierarchy don't understand the importance of QC and see it only as a cost, rather than as an added value.

 

[I Dont Care About You]

I agree. It's kind of like a Benelli M4 compared to a Canuck operator. Sure there's material differences and brand recognition that you're paying for, but a huge cost is the control processes and the guarantee of quality and consistent reliability.

Do I think it's worth it to offer is a rifle at such a good price? Yes, and if final assembly is being done here by Sterling Arms, it should offer plenty of opportunity to check tolerances.

Assembled and tested in Canada is no guarantee of good quality control. In fact I might suggest the opposite. Small companies run by designers and/or machinists have a tendency to not bother with and/or not understand the importance of proper QC or how to actually accomplish it. Just because a part is made on a high end CNC machine, is no guarantee that part is correct. CNC machines make bad parts just as quickly as they make good parts.

This comment is not based on SAI but on the past history of CDN built rifles.

 

[I Dont Care About You]

For sure, a final QC step will prevent some of the errors from making it to consumers. But if they're getting say 20% with deviations of varying severity, expect some of that to either make it out the door, ooor prices to go up. This whole situation is being received as absolute best case scenario, which rarely ends up happening lol.

A 20% error rate in any part is so bad that the manufacturer needs to start over. Deviations shouldn't exceed 1 or 2 percent in any given part. The problem in a machine like a firearm is that tolerances and deviations stack up, which is what causes failures in the end product. Failures are rarely the result of a single deviation in a single part ... although that can happen.

The QC problem is to understand which tolerances in which dimensions in which parts are critical and which aren't and ensure that production is making parts within the design specs and at what rate deviations occur and most importantly at what frequency QC checks are made to ensure the production lot is all within spec. It is not possible to check every dimension of every part when parts are being made by the thousands. This is where statistics comes into effect and this is also why small shops and manufacturers fail so often.

 

[DerWeißeWolf]

Interesting discussion, but I'm more interested in getting my hands on it at the range! Will there be a pre-sale?

 

[Scotty454]

A 20% error rate in any part is so bad that the manufacturer needs to start over. Deviations shouldn't exceed 1 or 2 percent in any given part. The problem in a machine like a firearm is that tolerances and deviations stack up, which is what causes failures in the end product. Failures are rarely the result of a single deviation in a single part ... although that can happen.

The QC problem is to understand which tolerances in which dimensions in which parts are critical and which aren't and ensure that production is making parts within the design specs and at what rate deviations occur and most importantly at what frequency QC checks are made to ensure the production lot is all within spec. It is not possible to check every dimension of every part when parts are being made by the thousands. This is where statistics comes into effect and this is also why small shops and manufacturers fail so often.

Agreed, they shouldn't. But they almost certainly will.

I'd be absolutely floored if they contracted manufacturing out to a cheap country like Turkey and only ended up with a 1 or 2% deviation rate. Even a 1 or 2% scrap rate would be incredible. I just don't see it, that's just not how offshore manufacturing works.

 

[ATRS Shaun]

The Crypto is a non-restricted, new manufacture AR15 that is not an AR15. It is a completely different proposition from an AR180 based rifle.

That is such an interesting statement... Please, could you tell me more on that topic ?

 

[Scotty454]

That is such an interesting statement... Please, could you tell me more on that topic ?

Ah god let's not start THAT discussion here, lol. This thread is still (at least sort of) about the R18 Mk3, it definitely won't be anymore if we go off on that tangent haha

 

[Zortron]

You are absolutely wrong that $2K is high for a rifle like the R18 Mk 3. It takes the $4500 HK416's self-regulating Gas System and marries it to the $3500 SIG MCX's Action in a nicely finished rifle package costing just $1800! If you can't afford an entry level rifle such as the R18 Mk3, perhaps you need to look elsewhere for a hobby....

It’s high when the SL8, Restricted Bren, and Tavor can be had for just a smidge over $2k.

And the last Sterling design (ie the Mk2) was hardly considered “entry level” and they were touting it as the premium AR-180 on the Canadian market.

So they come along with this next one and they say on the one hand it’s better, on the other hand it’s cheaper and now you’re saying it’s entry level? Which is it?

All I’m saying, is Sterling has made a lot to do about how their guns are Canadian made, and their last offering was a pretty decent quality. I don’t think their reputation necessarily carries over when they’ve now subcontracted every part and are producing it at arm’s length…

I also think you’re perhaps a bit too close to this project to be objective as you’ve been defending it against any possible bit of skepticism on 5 different threads and apparently still haven’t shot it.

 

[Vewdu]

No company on earth would ever offer such a thing. You want a company to allow idiot customers to install a supplied trigger and then accept the risks of the thing being installed incorrectly? Good luck with that.

Some sure have, and some still do. If someone can't figure out a pair of pins, a couple springs and watch a 5 minutes youtube video, then maybe thats a them problem and should rethink firearm ownership.

 

[CP 5.3]

I think the new gen R18 looks very promising. I can't wait to mount my LPVO to it. The ATRS MS would run laps around all the SA on todays market.

 

[Scotty454]

It’s high when the SL8, Restricted Bren, and Tavor can be had for just a smidge over $2k.

And the last Sterling design (ie the Mk2) was hardly considered “entry level” and they were touting it as the premium AR-180 on the Canadian market.

So they come along with this next one and they say on the one hand it’s better, on the other hand it’s cheaper and now you’re saying it’s entry level? Which is it?

All I’m saying, is Sterling has made a lot to do about how their guns are Canadian made, and their last offering was a pretty decent quality. I don’t think their reputation necessarily carries over when they’ve now subcontracted every part and are producing it at arm’s length…

I also think you’re perhaps a bit too close to this project to be objective as you’ve been defending it against any possible bit of skepticism on 5 different threads and apparently still haven’t shot it.

Absolutely not, this is now a Turkish gun; adjust your expectations accordingly. At least they dropped the price a bit.

 

[Bartok5]

It’s high when the SL8, Restricted Bren, and Tavor can be had for just a smidge over $2K.

And the last Sterling design (ie the Mk2) was hardly considered “entry level” and they were touting it as the premium AR-180 on the Canadian market.

So they come along with this next one and they say on the one hand it’s better, on the other hand it’s cheaper and now you’re saying it’s entry level? Which is it?

All I’m saying, is Sterling has made a lot to do about how their guns are Canadian made, and their last offering was a pretty decent quality. I don’t think their reputation necessarily carries over when they’ve now subcontracted every part and are producing it at arm’s length…

I also think you’re perhaps a bit too close to this project to be objective as you’ve been defending it against any possible bit of skepticism on 5 different threads and apparently still haven’t shot it.

You need to revisit your prices for the firearms that you quoted. $2700-2900 for a Tavor X95 is hardly "a smidge" over $2K. Same with the Restricted Bren - try $3350 for a 5.56" with factory 11" Barrel from RDSC. You are not even remotely close. Even the SL-8 is $2400 minimum. That is $600 more than the R18 Mk3, or 1/3 of the SAI rifle's cost!

When it comes to the new Mk3 being "better" than SAI's previous design, that ought to be obvious. The design of the Mk3 is far superior to that of the Mk2, which is just common sense based on incorporating lessons learned from the Mk2 in to the design of the Mk3. As for the new Mk3 being 1/3 less expensive than the Mk2, that is precisely what happens when you move component production off-shore to places like Turkey, Taiwan and Slovenia. The price has dropped from $2700 with a mil-spec Trigger to $1800 (initially) with the TriggerTech "Duty" Trigger included. That makes the R18 Mk3 considerably cheaper than its predecessor. Finally, the price and design are both clearly "Entry Level" insofar as the Canadian firearms market is concerned. Show me a less expensive (or better designed) semi-automatic, centerfire sporting/utility rifle currently available on the Canadian Market, excluding the "Crypto" which doesn't accept STANAG magazines and (Receiver set aside), makes use of cheap, readily available AR15 parts. Now show me a competing short-stroke piston design that strips down easier or is designed to be more "idiot-proof" than the R18 Mk3. There isn't one, which will further make the Mk3 an ideal "Entry Level" rifle on the Canadian firearms market.

SAI's reputation will rise or fall based on the quality and success of the Mk3's design, fabrication and end-user performance. Just as it did with the R18 Mk2. I don't think that they're particularly worried about their reputation at this point. If the Production Mk3 is as well-constructed and finished as the Prototype that I currently have in-hand, they will have nothing whatsoever to worry about.

I was the first to admit that I am close to this project in my Review's "Disclosure" paragraph. I have nothing to hide - I consulted on the final FRT Submission back in September of last year and have been tracking the project with interest ever since. That said, I have absolutely no vested personal interest in the successs or failure of the SAI R18 Mk3 aside from my friendship with the Chief Designer, JR Cox. Yes, I would like to see the Mk3 succeed, mostly because I think that it is an excellent amalgamation of two terrific small arms designs (HK 416 and SIG MCX/Spear), well-packaged and offered to the public at a very competitive price. Sitting here holding Prototype #9/25, I can tell you that I definitely want one of my very own. Not to mention a restricted 9mm R9 PCC - but that would be getting ahead of myself....

I have been clear from the outset that my initial Review was just that - a pre-firing, first impressions based on a detailed examination of Prototype Rifle #9. I stated that I will not be able to live-fire the rifle for accuracy and reliabiity results for a further 2 to 3 weeks at the earliest. So everybody who is paying attention is well aware that I have yet to fire the R18 Mk3....

 

[I Dont Care About You]

It’s high when the SL8, Restricted Bren, and Tavor can be had for just a smidge over $2k.

LOL. A smidge?

SL8's are fugly, and they take non-stanag mags, even if they are good. The G36 conversions are considerably more expensive.
X95's are $3k and up
Bren 2 start at $3k and go WAY up from there ... and those are the restricted ones. The non-restricted start at $3800 and up.

Your "smidge" is more like $1200 at the very minimum.

 

[I Dont Care About You]

You need to revisit your prices for the firearms that you quoted. $2700-2900 for a Tavor X95 is hardly "a smidge" over $2K. Same with the Restricted Bren - try $3350 for a 5.56" with factory 11" Barrel from RDSC. You are not even remotely close. Even the SL-8 is $2400 minimum. That is $600 more than the R18 Mk3, or 1/3 of the SAI rifle's cost!

Darn it, you beat me too it.

The other issue with the X95 is that supply is spotty at best and thus one cannot count on getting dealer pricing. When dealer supply dries up, the "used" market swells with the prices. Not too long ago, NIB X95 were selling around $3500.

A comparison with the restricted Bren is apples & oranges. The non-res Bren are considerably more expensive and supply is even more spotty than for the X95.

The SL8 is at its heart a target rifle, not a black rifle. It has numerous disadvantages when it comes to filling the same role as a black rifle. Magazine type being the primary one.