The Templar Thread, 5.56 by Crusader Arms / Spectre LTD
- Thread starter Ustauk
- Start date
The Templar QC thread is cause for some concern. Hopefully Spectre/Crusader will tighten up their final finishing and post-assembly QC in order to eliminate the evident shortcomings, as the photos are pretty nasty....
https://www.canadiangunnutz.com/for...-Crusader-Arms-Templar-quality-control-issues
https://www.canadiangunnutz.com/for...-Crusader-Arms-Templar-quality-control-issues
Last edited:
Feel free to enlighten me
You weren't kidding...
Did you own an R18 or just had one to demo? I'm curious how they're holding up.
Ehhhhh. Not reeeeeallly my story to tell. But I'll say this.
Steve worked for Kodiak while WK's we're being built.
Then suddenly Steve doesn't work there anymore.
Then Steve reappears with this whole Specter thing. And the MCR. And Wolverine in tow.
Then suddenly Wolverine has more than just Specter making the MCR (I'd have to assume because they couldn't keep up with demand)
Then earlier this year everyone's looking for MCR's because output has wound down to a trickle.
Then Wolverine responds with this when talking about a small order of rifles finally coming in.
Then won't reply to questions regarding whether the hold up is Crusader related with all the buzz around their new rifles.
Now Steve's making rifles both in Windsor and in Michigan.
The blanks can be filled by either side from any of these parties but I can pretty much guarantee you the stories will be different depending on who tells it.
So basically Steve is using various companies and all of the Canadian customer base as beta testers for his designs lol (just kidding)
I had a pre-production rifle on loan from SAI and TSE for the CGN Review that I wrote. The owner of TSE liked the review so much that he gifted me a rifle after the fact, in thanks for my otherwise obligation-free assistance. I basically did the review as a favour to an old friend, and in return he gave me an R18. Mine has all of the production upgrades and has been running fine with 100% reliability (once the gas system was properly tuned) for approximately 350 rounds thus far. As far as accuracy is concerned, I get just under 2 MOA with PMC 62gr XTax Green Tip ammo and under 1.5 MOA with Federal 69gr Gold Medal Match. Aside from the hefty weight, the R18 really is a very nice rifle. It is a highly-refined version of the AR-180 design, with familiar, AR15-style ambi controls. The price is higher than competing, domestically-manufactured AR-180 designs at $2.7K, however with the R18 you definitely get what you've paid for with immaculate machining and superb fit/finish. The R18 really is a very nice rifle that represents well on its own. That said, I personally think that the CZ Bren 2 is a superior design to the R18 at a $500 higher price-point. Given the choice, I would select the NR Bren 2 every time (once it beomes available). Fortunately, thanks to the generousity of JR Cox at TSE, I have the pleasure of owning and enjoying both platforms (I bought a 14" Bren 2), each of which has its advantages and disadvantages.
I have put about 350 rounds thru' my templar thus far. Not a huge number but that is the rough count from sighting in it's red dot and generally getting used to my first semi-auto rifle.
It has performed well and I like the trigger tech trigger. I don't really notice the weight of the rifle and I like the feel and layout of it. Once, the last round (number 10) in the 10/10 Cross Magazine hung up, but it was an easy clear.
I have used Federal and some cheaper Barnaul lacquered steel ammo (both 55gr) and it runs fine with both.
So, so far so good. I'll post again at 1,000 rounds
It has performed well and I like the trigger tech trigger. I don't really notice the weight of the rifle and I like the feel and layout of it. Once, the last round (number 10) in the 10/10 Cross Magazine hung up, but it was an easy clear.
I have used Federal and some cheaper Barnaul lacquered steel ammo (both 55gr) and it runs fine with both.
So, so far so good. I'll post again at 1,000 rounds
Last edited:
So I finally laid hands on a Templar today, courtesy of the rack at Phoenix Indoor Range and Gun Shop in Edmonton. As an aside for our Edmonton folks, the indoor range is now open again for paid-up members but not yet for the general public. Watch the website for updates concerning the general re-opening.
I don't have a great deal to say about the Templar, other than to reaffirm my original supposition that it is an "evolved" WS-MCR design, utilizing the distinctive steel reinforcing plate on the Left side of the Upper Receiver to prevent any steel (Cam Pin) on aluminum (interior Upper Receiver) wear. Whether this is actually required on a properly designed/timed system is debatable, but it is there "worst case" on the Templar. Other than that, I can now say with 100% confidence that the exteral machined and anodized finish oF the Templar is not as refined as that of the Bren 2 or the SAI R18 Mk 2. I would put the actual fit of the parts and their finish on par with the WK-180 Gen2, albeit using Spectre's new enhanced AR15-"style" Lower Receiver and Monolithic Upper Receiver/Handguard designs. The final surface machining and the anodized finish of the Lower Receiver are definitely of a lower quality than that found on any of the "big name" or upper-end rifles. That said, the fit and finish are entirely serviceable and should render years of solid use.
The slightly "rough" fit and Finish extends to the action of the rifle as well. Allowing the Bolt Carrier Assembly to close while holding the Charging Handle under spring tension results in a forceful and positive closure, but it is not nearly as smooth nor as crisp as the Bren 2, any AR15, or even the closest direct competitor the R18 Mk2. The finish of the internal parts was decent, but not flawless like some other manufacturers. The Bolt Carrier is larger and heavier than competing designs, which may actually enhance reliability with a more forceful final Bolt closure and lock-up. The Hammer on the "Mil Spec Trigger" was horribly finished with a rough-cast external surface. That said, it functioned fine and aside from being unsightly it would no doubt provide a full lifetime of satisfactory service.
The "Magpul"-like F5 Folding Buttstock is far flimsier than the original Magpul design that it quite obviously copies. When fully extended there is considerable lateral slop in the Rear portion of the Buttstock. The stock does stay closed against the firearm when folded, at least when new. However it does not inspire the same long-term confidence that the Magpul product did. It appears to be fabricated from an inferior type of polymer, resulting in increased flex.
All things considered, the Templar reminds me far more of the WS-MCR that I (briefly) owned than it does the "gifted to me" R18 Mk2, which I intend to keep. On a sliding scale I would honestly rate the R18 as "Excellent" compared to the Templar's "Good Enough". But that's just me, and many would have you believe that I am biased towards the R18. I just try to call 'em like I see 'em, and would still take my Bren 2 or any AR over both the R18 or especially the Templar, any day of the week. The Templar is an OK rifle, with what appears to be competent design and satisfactory execution. The R18 goes the extra mile in terms of fit, finish and the careful integration of its components. As a result, both rifles command substanially different prce-points. I would say that the R18 and the Templar are both "fairly" priced for what you actually receive at $2700 and $2000 respectively.
If you want an up-scale WS-MCR or WK-180 Gen 2 with a Monolthic Extruded Upper Receiver and the AR-style Lower Receiver, then the Templar is the rifle for you. By this, I mean that you are satisfied with "good enough" design, fit and finish, which will probably last the lifetime of the firearm without problem, but is definitely "rough" in places. That, versus the premium design (eg. 3-part Gas System), fit and finish of the R18 Mk2, which is pretty much flawless in every regard. Bottom line? You get what you pay for, and both rifles are priced accordingly on the Canadian firearms market. That said, patriotism aside there is no reason to purchase either of the Canadian-made rifles so long as the Tavor X95 and the CZ Bren 2 remain available and within your budget. If not, then either Canadian rifle will certainly satisfy your expectations. A Cerakoted Templar would certainly appeal more than the basic metal finishes currently employed by Crusader Arms. (hint, hint).
I don't have a great deal to say about the Templar, other than to reaffirm my original supposition that it is an "evolved" WS-MCR design, utilizing the distinctive steel reinforcing plate on the Left side of the Upper Receiver to prevent any steel (Cam Pin) on aluminum (interior Upper Receiver) wear. Whether this is actually required on a properly designed/timed system is debatable, but it is there "worst case" on the Templar. Other than that, I can now say with 100% confidence that the exteral machined and anodized finish oF the Templar is not as refined as that of the Bren 2 or the SAI R18 Mk 2. I would put the actual fit of the parts and their finish on par with the WK-180 Gen2, albeit using Spectre's new enhanced AR15-"style" Lower Receiver and Monolithic Upper Receiver/Handguard designs. The final surface machining and the anodized finish of the Lower Receiver are definitely of a lower quality than that found on any of the "big name" or upper-end rifles. That said, the fit and finish are entirely serviceable and should render years of solid use.
The slightly "rough" fit and Finish extends to the action of the rifle as well. Allowing the Bolt Carrier Assembly to close while holding the Charging Handle under spring tension results in a forceful and positive closure, but it is not nearly as smooth nor as crisp as the Bren 2, any AR15, or even the closest direct competitor the R18 Mk2. The finish of the internal parts was decent, but not flawless like some other manufacturers. The Bolt Carrier is larger and heavier than competing designs, which may actually enhance reliability with a more forceful final Bolt closure and lock-up. The Hammer on the "Mil Spec Trigger" was horribly finished with a rough-cast external surface. That said, it functioned fine and aside from being unsightly it would no doubt provide a full lifetime of satisfactory service.
The "Magpul"-like F5 Folding Buttstock is far flimsier than the original Magpul design that it quite obviously copies. When fully extended there is considerable lateral slop in the Rear portion of the Buttstock. The stock does stay closed against the firearm when folded, at least when new. However it does not inspire the same long-term confidence that the Magpul product did. It appears to be fabricated from an inferior type of polymer, resulting in increased flex.
All things considered, the Templar reminds me far more of the WS-MCR that I (briefly) owned than it does the "gifted to me" R18 Mk2, which I intend to keep. On a sliding scale I would honestly rate the R18 as "Excellent" compared to the Templar's "Good Enough". But that's just me, and many would have you believe that I am biased towards the R18. I just try to call 'em like I see 'em, and would still take my Bren 2 or any AR over both the R18 or especially the Templar, any day of the week. The Templar is an OK rifle, with what appears to be competent design and satisfactory execution. The R18 goes the extra mile in terms of fit, finish and the careful integration of its components. As a result, both rifles command substanially different prce-points. I would say that the R18 and the Templar are both "fairly" priced for what you actually receive at $2700 and $2000 respectively.
If you want an up-scale WS-MCR or WK-180 Gen 2 with a Monolthic Extruded Upper Receiver and the AR-style Lower Receiver, then the Templar is the rifle for you. By this, I mean that you are satisfied with "good enough" design, fit and finish, which will probably last the lifetime of the firearm without problem, but is definitely "rough" in places. That, versus the premium design (eg. 3-part Gas System), fit and finish of the R18 Mk2, which is pretty much flawless in every regard. Bottom line? You get what you pay for, and both rifles are priced accordingly on the Canadian firearms market. That said, patriotism aside there is no reason to purchase either of the Canadian-made rifles so long as the Tavor X95 and the CZ Bren 2 remain available and within your budget. If not, then either Canadian rifle will certainly satisfy your expectations. A Cerakoted Templar would certainly appeal more than the basic metal finishes currently employed by Crusader Arms. (hint, hint).
Last edited:
Templar. Fit and finsh are pretty much equal, so it is down to the design. I believe that the Templar is the more evolved design due to the Monolithic Upper Receiver and the thicker one-piece Piston. YMMV however...
Thanks for the fit and finish and basic function overview/comparison, Bartok!
It sounds like the Templar may be good for those who want a non-restricted rifle that are bullpup averse, and who don't want to pay R18 or Bren 2 NR (either factory or DLask converted) prices, who want something more robust then a WK or even MCR.
If going for a budget, one may want to take the buffer tube version and get an TNA folding buffer tube adapter later. It will work with the Spectre LTD Galil-style fixed length folder, if that's preferable.
A head to head with the BCL Siberian when it arrives will be interesting, possibly with a Gen 2 WK with a TNA upgraded piston when that is released.
It sounds like the Templar may be good for those who want a non-restricted rifle that are bullpup averse, and who don't want to pay R18 or Bren 2 NR (either factory or DLask converted) prices, who want something more robust then a WK or even MCR.
If going for a budget, one may want to take the buffer tube version and get an TNA folding buffer tube adapter later. It will work with the Spectre LTD Galil-style fixed length folder, if that's preferable.
A head to head with the BCL Siberian when it arrives will be interesting, possibly with a Gen 2 WK with a TNA upgraded piston when that is released.
Hello. So just coming back over from the thread I made the other week. Received my new rifle and it seems to be in pretty good shape. Its also serialed around 140 compared to the old #17. Was the gun you had at the range one of the pretty early ones in production?
No idea of the serial range on their stock of Templars.
thanks for the input. not crazy bout the monolithic upper but, i do like the idea of a thicker piston! oh, and the magwell! big plus…
So any ideas why the Afterpay option on checkout literally just disappear when i enter my address? I figured it's something to do with the fact that i live in QC. I tried to contact Crusader Arms on Facebook (They don't have any "contact us" page on their website, nor any other contact information) but it's been a week and they haven't read my message yet.
It really looks like a nice rifle, but i can't pay 2k on it in one shot. So the Afterpay thing is my only option.
It really looks like a nice rifle, but i can't pay 2k on it in one shot. So the Afterpay thing is my only option.
